Hard Core Logo

Season 2 of Dog-eared and Cracked returns with Hard Core Logo written by Michael Turner. But wait folks there's more! This time around Jay and Phil compare the book to the movie directed by Bruce McDonald.  If that's not enough, we've got a guest co-host for this episode.  Listen is as Jay, Phil and Mike philosophize about the life span of a punk band and then try and guess their lunch order.   

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Transcript

Song [00:00:11] (Excerpt from Hard Core Logo's "Who the Hell You Think You are" 

JAY [00:00:14] "If I could give you all one piece of advice, ditch the band and buy a farm. It doesn't matter what you grow. It's the fact that you'll see whatever you do." 

PHIL [00:00:32] Welcome to Dog-eared and Cracked, the podcast where each of us recommends a book to the other and hopes our friendship survives. I'm Phil. 

JAY [00:00:41] And I'm Jay. 

PHIL [00:00:42] This time around, we're discussing Michael Turner's 1993 book, Hard Core Logo. And later in the episode, we'll be welcoming our first Dog-eared and Cracked guest; it's writer and one-time roadie Mike Chamberlain. Now, this is the first episode of the second season of the podcast. Thank you to all of you for sticking with us through season one and our short break between the last episode in this one. 

JAY [00:01:07] Before we get into the book, if you like the podcast, please write and review us on Apple podcasts or wherever else you listen. Ratings and reviews make the podcast easier to find and allow us to reach more people. You can also leave us feedback at dogearedandcracked.ca, and who knows we might read it on the show. We do have a review this week and we'll share that one at the end of the show. 

PHIL [00:01:28] So Jay, before we talk about the book, tell us a bit about Michael Turner. 

JAY [00:01:32] Well, Michael Turner was himself a musician. He was an original member of a Vancouver rockabilly band called Hard Rock Miners, and they were formed in 1987 and put out four albums. His first book, Company Town, was nominated for the Dorothy Livesay poetry prize. Hard Core Logo was actually his second book, and he received a Genie award for his contribution to the movie soundtrack. The story of Hard Core Logo actually centres around four members of a punk band who reunite and go on tour across western Canada. It's a story told through short descriptive passages, almost like poetry. And at times, Turner writes song lyrics in the form of poems in the book itself. So, Phil, why did you come up with this book as your pick for me to read? 

PHIL [00:02:21] Well, at one point, I mean, you know, several months ago now, we were talking about what we were going to pick for upcoming books, and you had this idea that maybe we should pick something that had been adapted into a film. A pair of books that had been adapted into a film. You'd pick one, I'd pick one. And so I thought, all right. And for some reason, Hard Core Logo was the first one that came to mind. I think maybe even more than reading the book, I wanted you to watch the film. But I also thought it's a really interesting adaptation, given that it is a novel, but it's told through these little snippets like, you know, it's set lists and diary entries and poems and voice mail messages. And it kind of tells the story of the, you know, the unravelling of this band in that format. What did you think of that? 

JAY [00:03:08] I really actually enjoyed the fragments of the story and how the director took them and kind of painted the screen with the same characters. There are four characters, but there's two in particular. And that really plays through in the movie as well. So there's Joe Dick, kind of the leader of the band, and Billy Talent, who I guess ironically is the talent of the band because he's the one who's got these gigs that actually professionally pay well. And then there's Pipefitter -- presumably his nickname; I can't remember his real name. It's actually in the book on one of the receipts. And then there's John Oxenberger. I read the book first and I really enjoyed seeing the director take all these fragments and kind of assemble them into a into a movie. And it's kind of exciting because you start to see little fragments. What did you think of the characters? 

PHIL [00:03:58] Yeah, I think I mean, the characters are great. You get a sense of them beyond the world of this band. A little bit like -- Pipefitter has got a truck and he's hauling garbage. John Oxenberger, he's, he's working for a company he names that --- I can't remember what it was called, but I actually went and looked it up, and it's a company that runs fish farms. But the other two guys, you know, Joe Dick and Billy Talent, they can't conceive of doing anything else, right? I mean, this is their life. These guys are all in on this one particular band. And these other guys, it's like, hey, if we do one more tour, I can buy a new truck, right? 

JAY [00:04:33] Yeah, that's right. 

PHIL [00:04:34] What did you think of the songs? 

JAY [00:04:36] I was not excited about the songs. They're actually my least favourite. But there's a really cool thing that Turner does in the book. Each page is essentially a different chapter, as it were, in the story of this band. So the first page of a section is called, do you remember this? It's called "Joe's Key Words to a New Song." And it's nothing more. It's a set of, a list of words, short phrases like "million dollar debt," "bad times," "gives up hockey." And you're reading this list and you're going  this is super random and makes no sense. Then the next page, all of that seems to snap into better understanding, as Joe explains to -- and I'm presuming this is the band he is explaining to -- that he was having lunch and there are some farmers at the other table and he'd scribbled down what they're talking about on a napkin. So that's great. And then the third page, when you turn it over, has the actual song written down and lyrics format that takes all of those words like "million dollar debt," "bad times" and gives up hockey". I just thought that was really genius and a really cool way to tell a story. 

PHIL [00:05:40] You know, John is really central to this story because we have the excerpts from his tour diary. As the tour is kind of falling apart, he says, "I can't say I blame people. We seem to represent everyone's worst vices." And that made me wonder about the appeal of punk. 

JAY [00:05:57] I thought about that and I was thinking, are we, you know, is it the fact that we've grown out of it or have we just gotten too busy? And so it's not necessarily that we've matured. It kind of ties back to our conversation that you and I had about heavy metal when we reviewed Fargo Rock City. And so you could say this whole punk or heavy metal, that it's a reflection of this existence so far removed from our daily living. You know, when we were younger, it represented this illusionary freedom from the restrictions we faced. And then, of course, we got a little more control over our own lives. But then we're going flat out. I think the sentiment still exists, honestly. There are days when I still like to rage against the establishment once in a while, but I just can't seem to fit it into my schedule. What did you think of John over there writing on his own?

PHIL [00:06:42] Even though our main guys are Joe... Mulgrew, I guess is his real last name, right? 

JAY [00:06:47] I think so, yeah. Yeah. 

PHIL [00:06:49] You know, Joe Dick and Billy Talent. But, but John is really central to this story because of those excerpts from his tour diaries. And so we get his point of view, right? He's in that classic kind of writer position of being an insider and an outsider at the same time. He is an insider. He's in the band. But just the fact of his recording what's going on all the time kind of sets him apart. And then there's this whole other plot with John that's not in the book at all, but in the film: he's a guy with mental illness who loses his medication on the road. So, you know, we don't have that part in the book, but we do get a sense that he's very observant and and kind of sensitive. Right? Like, did you get a sense that the others in the band are unsettled by John's writing? 

JAY [00:07:33] Well, yeah, they're, they're absolutely unsettled both in the movie and in the book. But I'm going to, if you'll indulge me, kind of provide a convoluted response because it's a really cool idea. And there's this philosopher, Jean-Paul Sartre, and he's got a book, Being and Nothingness, and he talks about being for itself and being for others, and there's this tension between the two. So it's this idea that we don't really think about ourselves being observed, but we are constantly, right? We go through life just being for ourselves and not really realising that perhaps the way we look at ourselves is different than the way that others look at us. And so we just ignore it. But when someone's sitting there writing about us, we're reminded of the fact that we are actually being observed all the time, and if someone's writing about us, high probability it is something that is about who we are and may impact kind of how we see ourselves. And I think, subconsciously, there's something to that, in the sense that we don't like to be observed, we don't even -- if someone is just like, think about someone staring at you, right? Your first instinct is going to be that there's something wrong with you, which is absurd, but it's true. Anyway, that's my convoluted response. For every Dog-eared and Cracked episode, I have to throw something in there that makes absolutely no sense. 

PHIL [00:09:09] Yeah, but I think you're right, there is something a little unsettling about it. And I think sometimes, John, like, you know, I picked out one segment where I thought it kind of summed up the way things were going on this, this punk band's acoustic reunion tour. What is it? Like, you know, five cities or something. And here's what John writes: "There's the free room, then playing music and feeling all good about the band, and then it dissolves into bad feelings, mostly over money." I mean, it seemed to me like somehow that kind of summed up what the book was about. Not that their bad feelings were all about money, but, you know, that it's kind of like, hey, yeah, cool, let's do this. And then it just kind of all falls apart. 

JAY [00:09:51] Yeah, I love that passage as well because it it it captures this whole idea that -- you really understood the happiness that they felt when everything was clicking and it's like, you know, they captured the 80 percent, that's just drudgery, but then it's the 20 percent that keeps you coming back. And John's joy of playing music, you know, I would say not for the fame or money, but it's because he was playing with his family, with his friends. He felt like he fit in. I really liked his, the, his writing in the story because it functioned as a really good narrative device. It kind of moved the story along and added depth and colour to how everyone was feeling -- kind of where they're at. Sometimes, sometimes you just can't do that with dialogue. So John's writing this narrative within a narrative worked really, really well. 

PHIL [00:10:42] So, I spent an inordinate amount of time on this next thing, which is that on page 94, they go for lunch at the Golden Arches Motor Hotel. The page is called "Lunch at the Golden Arches Motor Hotel", and it says, OK. "One double burger, no lettuce, tomatoes or mayo, side of onion rings, Diet Coke."

JAY [00:11:08] Well, I had to go through them logically. So I think that one I'm just going to say is going to be. Billy's. I'll explain why as we go along, 

PHIL [00:11:20] Chicken pie, side salad, strawberry jello, decaf. 

JAY [00:11:26] OK, that one hands down is Joe's, because -- I feel like, and I know I just made this up, but addicts always drink decaf 

PHIL [00:11:34] Spaghetti and meatballs, garlic toast, chocolate shake, cheesecake. 

JAY [00:11:40] OK, I had to -- this is where I had to debate a little bit and I thought, well, I had Pipefitter in mind just based on his experience with deli trays, and it was between the double burger and the spaghetti. And I went with the spaghetti just because it was a chocolate milkshake. And I can't see him getting a Diet Coke. 

PHIL [00:11:58] Chef's salad, clam chowder, cornbread, postum. Postum. I had to look that up too. Some kind of coffee substitute. 

JAY [00:12:10] I don't know, I had to look it up too. It's some type of drink, some weird coffee alternative. I just go with John for this one, because I just want him to be healthy. I felt so terrible for him in the film. 

PHIL [00:12:34] All right, so we've been talking about the book Hard Core Logo, but now we want to get into a conversation about the 1996 film directed by Bruce MacDonald and written by screenwriter Noel Baker. And we've got a guest for this discussion. It's our first Dog-eared and Cracked guest, Mike Chamberlain. Welcome, Mike. 

MIKE [00:12:51] Nice to be here. Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be your first guest. I'm honoured. Thank you. 

PHIL [00:13:00] Mike is a writer, a broadcaster, a culture critic, and he's a former roadie. And that came up when we first talked about Hard Core Logo together after it came out in 1996. I think Mike and I saw together at the Cinéma du Parc in Montreal, although I'm not 100 percent sure.

MIKE [00:13:15] I think we, I think we went to the film together. I know for sure I saw it when it first came out at Cinéma du Parc in Montreal. And if you say that we went together, well, we went together. I believe that. Yeah. Well, let's go with that story. 

PHIL [00:13:30] What I remember is that after we came out of the theatre, you looked at me and you said, "That's the closest thing I've ever seen in a movie to what it's like being on the road with a rock n' roll band."

MIKE [00:13:41] To me, it captured what it was like to be on the road with with a rock n' roll band, you know. I worked with, I worked with a band for a couple of years. It was a 50s rock n' roll band. And we played clubs and it was like a week or two at a time. So it wasn't the same economy. That particular musical economy doesn't exist anymore, so it wasn't quite the same, you know, sort of concentrated thing that happened you know, in a short tour of the kind depicted in the film. But it's still, it's like to me, it really did capture kind of, you know, what it's like driving across the country. You know, a lot of things uncertain, you're depending on people that are, that are crazy to get things done and, you know, you don't know quite where it's going to go. It really had a strong feeling that way for me in the film. There's there's -- in Regina, there's Mary the Fan, right? And like, you know, there was a Mary the Fan in every town and. 

JAY [00:14:42] Wait, I've got to stop you. 

MIKE [00:14:42] Yes. 

JAY [00:14:42] So... 

MIKE [00:14:42] I mean, it was not to say, that's not to say that the guitar player had  impregnated a girl in every town. But I mean, there was somebody like...

JAY [00:14:53] But a 50s... You just described them as a 50s... 

MIKE [00:14:56] Right. 

JAY [00:14:56] Type of rock band. 

MIKE [00:15:00] Well...

JAY [00:15:00] There is a Mary the Fan in every town for  50's rock music? 

MIKE [00:15:02] It was kind of a bit of a twisted...Like, it didn't hew too closely to being reverent in that anyway. And they would get me to come up every once in a while. I'd play guitar with them. There was a, we did a great version of "Gloria" where the guy that sang it ended up, you know, stripping practically naked. And part of the action was like... It was a very, it was a fun thing. So it was comedy and music at the same time. And it was a trip. It was something I did in my early 20s for a couple of years. But like I said, the whole business is you know, there's moments in that film where I experienced moments that were similar to that or felt similar to, you know, the guys just, you know, not getting along with one another. And, you know, you're going on bald tires, you know, hoping to make it to Fort McMurray, you know, and not hit a deer on the way or a bear, you know, or something like that. So, you know, it's that sort of thing I think was really true to life. You know, I thought they really captured that well. 

JAY [00:16:02] So here's my question. So the punk thing in my mind was always anti-establishment. It was anti everything, right? But here's the thing with Joe Dick: Is he really basically an asshole or is he just basically doing the punk thing? 

MIKE [00:16:17] Joe Dick is such an interesting character, right? Like, he has  this tragic downfall because, you know, he fucks up. He gets Bucky, you know, he uses Bucky Haight in a story -- to have a benefit for Bucky Haight to get some money together. And then he wants -- and then they offer to do the tour, and he ends up having to kill time, and by doing so thought, well, let's stop at Bucky's. And he can't say, "No, I can't stop at Bucky Haight's" and he was screwed. And so, you know, it all kind of falls apart when theyshow up at Bucky Haight's and of course Bucky hasn't been shot, and Bucky is not paralyzed or anything like that. I keep coming back to Joe because he's really kind of an interesting guy. It's like he -- they ask him, he's asked at one point, you know, what are you going to do, you know, when you're 45 years old? And this is a big question for Joe, right? What is he going to do at 45? And, you know, he wants to keep doing Hard Core Logo. You know, is that all he's got: Being Joe Dick, I mean, what does that say about somebody, if that's your, if your, you know, you were talking about that earlier and I think it's -- I think it's more of a self-identity thing, you know, that he's like, "I've always been, I'm Joe Dick and that's who I am." And he's, and he's like, he's Joe Dick all the time, right? 

JAY [00:17:35] I'm going to respond to that, Mike, and ask -- there's an extension to that. Like, for example, I saw Nazareth in a bar that held maybe, I don't know, 200 people. Right? Which for me was a great intimate moment. But it begs the question, they used to,  they used to, they used to play in arenas. And clearly I want to assume they at least had a reasonable accountant and they didn't need the money. So clearly they're doing it for the same reason as Joe Dick. And it's not so much, you know, I'd I'd suggest -- throw out there that maybe it's not so much that he needed to do it or had nothing else going on in his life. But he just loved it that much. It was, it was something -- and there's something to be said for that. I mean, I'm not going to defend him because clearly, in the end, things did not turn out well for him. But the guy just loved his band and he loved what he was doing, and I respect that. 

MIKE [00:18:31] Yeah, I guess so. I somehow, I see him as a sadder figure than that, you know. But I understand. I get you I get what you're saying. And absolutely there's value in that, you know. But but there's also a kind of you know, there's kind of a sad inevitability about it, too. You know, I'm just talking about the guy doing the same stuff and maybe he just, you know, 45, when he's 45 or 50 or whatever, and then maybe he just genuinely loves playing music. I'm not so sure about the Joe Dick persona, but, you know, certainly loving, playing music and going out and playing rock and roll, you know, past your prime is -- no problem with that, right? And I respect that, you know, I do respect that, because I know a lot of guys that do that, right? So, like you said with Nazareth, if if they're playing, you know, "This Flight Tonight" and they're having a blast and the audience is enjoying it, well, who cares, right? If it's 200 people in the club, what else are they going to be doing? Sitting at home watching something on television or something? Right?

PHIL [00:19:29] Yeah, I mean, there's this part in Spinal Tap where they just keep playing smaller and smaller venues, culminating in "Puppet Show and Spinal Tap," right? So there's a bit of that. I mean, in Hard Core Logo, I mean, you don't get the sense -- they were never an arena band, right? But that's kind of the endpoint you get to if you keep doing this. 

MIKE [00:19:49] Yeah. 

PHIL [00:19:49] A lot of people I know have compared this film to Spinal Tap because it's a mockumentary. And that's something that really drives me around the bend. I mean, you know, I did notice that there are a few Spinal Tap mentions in the film. They do reference it. So obviously they're aware of that and figure that might happen. But to me, it just seems like this film, other than the fact that it's a mockumentary about a band that's falling apart, I mean, it just seems like a completely different kind of creature to me. I mean, what did you think about that? 

MIKE [00:20:19] I don't, I don't see that they're the same film, you know? And certainly I mean, it's it's hard to take a lot of what, you know, like, you know, Pipefitter, you know, there's a scene in the kitchen in  Edmonton where he's going, "We're going to get to this. We're a band!" Right.?And they're all looking at each other like, what does that mean? Right? You know, we're a band for like another 25 minutes. You know, so there's there's that sort of mocking, of the sort of -- nobody, nobody gets a chance to be a hero, let's say. And there's no, there are no heroes. But yeah. Spinal Tap, Spinal Tap is  just, it's more parodying the whole rock culture thing more than, more than this film is. This film is like, this is about a band. This is about a guy. This is about a guy, Joe Dick, who goes out and he believes. He has this band and he believes in it and he loves it and they have great fun playing together when it's good. But nobody else is committed to the band. He's the only one committed to the band. But he can't keep it together. And any, and like I said, he's a sad guy. He gets it back together on a lie. Right. And then he gets found out and then the whole thing falls apart on him, you know. So Spinal Tap is not that, you know. Spinal Tap makes fun of stuff, right? Hard Core Logo -- it's a different thing. You know, Billy says it in Saskatoon. There's the scene where they, where he's still miked, right? And so Bruce is like zoomed in on him, right there, listening to the conversation. And Billy says, "I'm going to be 35 next week. If I play this club one more time in my life, I just want to shoot myself." Right? And so, I think it's more like that. It's just like, I don't want to keep doing this same thing, because it doesn't, it doesn't go anywhere, so that you can spit on me, right, and we'll play those same songs. And they're great songs. But, you know, it's, you know, Billy wants models and limousines. And Joe, he's satisfied with hookers and taxis. Right? You know, so, so there is, they see, they each see their you know, their destinations differently. Right? And Joe keeps trying to get Billy to come back into the fold. Into the band. He wants to get the band going again. And Billy just, he just goes like --he just doesn't see the future, right? He just doesn't see the future. And in the end, Joe doesn't see the future either. 

PHIL [00:22:47] Now, this is Jay's question, but I'm going to jump in and ask it, even though I don't completely understand it, because I've been quieter than usual. Who won the film? 

MIKE [00:22:56] Who won? I like this one. This is, that's a great fucking question. Who won? I think the audience wins, I think because I think Bruce McDonald really made a really good film here. I think he really was -- I think it's a really ambitious film, first of all. And like I said, he captures the feeling of what it's like, you know, to be with falling apart rock n' roll band travelling in the Saskatchewan, the Canadian prairies -- I'm from Saskatchewan --  the Canadian prairies, you know, trying to, you know, get to the next gig and try to keep sane in-between times. And it's the keeping sane in-between times is really the most difficult part of the whole, of the whole thing. Right? You know, don't look at the film for an idea of what the drive between, you know, Regina and Winnipeg looks like or something because it's not correct.

JAY [00:23:49] Yeah, I'm just looking, I'm just looking at Phil's notes here. He goes, "the beauty of the landscape."  There's nothing beautiful about, like flat prairie, like wheatfields! I think this is someone who's never been out west. 

MIKE [00:24:04] There are beautiful parts of the prairies. Come on. But, you know, he doesn't capture that and he doesn't try to you know, he's not trying to do that. It's like, OK, we're on the prairies now. So here's a shot of the road, you know, in the prairies. Right? And that's it. You know, so I mean, he does this, he does the same thing in Roadkill, right? Like, it's always like, you know, if he wants to show, like a road, it's just like, OK, well, then we got the camera at road level and here comes the vehicle. And he kind of specializes in road level shots, I think, in a couple of his films. And he doesn't really, he doesn't capture the the light of the prairies, you know, the sort of magical light of the prairies that you get, you know. Yeah. 

JAY [00:24:53] So, like to me, John is the narrator here, almost like he's almost like a counter... I don't know what the right term is and that's why I'm going to lean on you a little bit. But he plays this role. So, Mike, you know how he always writes, and as he writes in his diary and he talks about it, and then on, is it Pipefitter? pulls out the notebook and reads, basically reiterating what he's written. And to me, that's kind of almost like a narrative, because... 

MIKE [00:25:26] Pipefitter, we didn't really talk about Pipefitter and John Oxenberger the bass player because, you know, because they do have a kind of a big part to play in it in a way. Right? I mean, and just coincidentally, but the one guy that -- we had a drummer that we had in Big Al & the Hi Fis for a little while, this guy named Vinnie Costa, who had a really rough time on the road in different ways, but he wrote all the time. And he ended up writing a book about, you know, his -- he was in the band for like six months. He did a couple of tours, and he wrote about, he wrote a book about that, you know, and I have a copy of it. And because here's the thing. I've spent a lot of time around musicians in my life, talking to musicians and so on. And I wrote, I've written about music a lot. And mostly it's about writing about the people that make the music. There's always somebody with a notebook I find, around, you know, so that's not far fetched. You know, to me, it's not at all far fetched. It's a device, but it's not it's not something that's like, oh, well, they had to bring in this sort of oddball idea. No, no. It's just kind of normal to have somebody in the band that's writing in a notebook. Right? You see, you're writing in the van across, you know, like from Calgary to Medicine Hat is the most boring drive anywhere. And, you know, what are you going to do? And looking out the windows is not going to do anything for you. Right? 

PHIL [00:27:01] Huh, that's interesting. You know, we could probably keep going all day, but for the sake of our listeners, we should wrap things up. And Mike, is there anything you'd like to highlight? Where can people find you online? Is there anything you're up to that you'd like to point people to? 

MIKE [00:27:19] What am I up to these days? Not very much in terms of writing and so on. And I haven't been broadcasting for for a while. I am @lionelvinyl on Twitter, and on Instagram I'm cleanheadmtl. On my Facebook page, you can become a fan of the tree. 

PHIL [00:27:36] And the tree, I should point out, is in the yard below Mike's condo, that he photographs every single day. 

MIKE [00:27:45] There's thism there's this little apple, there's this apple tree, kind of little apple tree that's in the --I'm on the eighth floor. And I started taking photographs of this apple tree. And it changes through the years. And it's kind of, you know, through the seasons and everything. And sometimes there's snow and sometimes there's snow with people having walked on it. You know, the light can be interesting and so on. So I post photographs of this tree on on Facebook. And so -- but the tree, the tree's got fans all over the world. 

PHIL [00:28:13] All right. Look, Mike, this is a great conversation. I'm really glad you could do this. And thanks for coming on the show with us. 

JAY [00:28:20] I actually really enjoyed meeting you Mike, this has been great. We had some really good conversation about, you know, Dog-eared and Cracked is always just about kind of different opinions and first time we ever did this for the film. And this one has been a lot of fun. 

MIKE [00:28:36] And I've enjoyed every minute of this. You guys, this has really been great. And I hope, I hope you've enjoyed my contribution to to the podcast today. And thanks for, thanks for inviting me on. I really appreciate it. It was fun. 

JAY [00:28:54] Yeah, that was a great conversation with Mike, really enjoyed that, and I guess we're kind of down to final thoughts on the book, right, Phil. 

PHIL [00:29:01] Right. So at this point, we we rate the book on a scale of one to five, this week, one being that you would rate the four Kiss solo albums as better than Hard Core Logo and five being you wish it was a real band and you got to see them in person. Yeah, not not my best effort at a rating system. But anyway, where do you come down on this book? 

JAY [00:29:27] I'll say I found this book -- it's a clever book. It's smartly written. I really loved how the characters are just created, this humour. You know, it's a sparse book, but it's powerful. It only takes about an hour to read. For example, one page. I'll just quickly read it out here. It's about five lines. "From the Shotgun Position" and this is, of course, where they're on the road, so the page is "From the Shotgun Position.": "Check it out, man, a skinhead hitchin' in Revelstoke. Let's pick him up.". Then you turn it over to the next page titled "The Skinhead Lasts a Mile.": "Hard Core Logo? Never heard of you." I just thought that was great. It just, it was a fun book to read and I really enjoyed the scrapbook part. And I, you know, I honestly, Phil, I've got to thank you for this. And this is one of those occasions where Dog-eared and Cracked really pays off because it's not a book I would have ever picked up my own to read, or for that matter, I might not even have ever even seen the movie. It just kind of slipped through. But both were really enjoyable and perfect complements to each other. If we're rating the book and movie separately, they would probably be about a four out of five respectively, but paired it's a four and a half out of five experience. 

PHIL [00:30:48] I hadn't thought of it, I hadn't thought of it like that. Yeah, yeah. You know what? I'm going to agree with your rating. I think that's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah, because reading the book and watching the film, I mean, it kind of adds an aspect to the other that you don't get on your own -- on their own. They really, they really do complement each other. I like that. OK, you said at the start that we have a review and you kind of teased this with me before. So, yeah. Why don't we get to that? What have you got? What's the review? 

JAY [00:31:15] So we did receive a review. Dog-eared and Cracked was described -- our podcast, which I believe was The 50th Law that we had done, was described as "brilliant intro" where each host  subjects  the other to books. It was added that there was a nice call to action to go the website, though we should make the intro sound more natural. A glitch in the audio was pointed out. Apparently you repeated "these ratings and reviews help us" twice. And there was a suggestion to do the "rate and review" spiel in the middle of the podcast and not the beginning. And that's from Erin P, who incidentally, is my daughter, which is a little harsh on her part. 

PHIL [00:32:00] Does she work in marketing? 

JAY [00:32:01] She is in marketing. That's right. Yeah. That's why she is probably saying put the ratings and reviews spiel in the middle of the podcast and not getting -- we love it, we love feedback. Positive and negative, 

PHIL [00:32:16] I guess if we were smarter at this point, we'd have some swag or some merch to point you to, but we don't. So we'll just leave it at that. Next episode., our long awaited, at least by Jay, episode on The Warriors. Again, we're going to look at a book and the film adaptation. So in this case, the 1965 book by Saul Urich, which I know nothing about other than that it's based on Xenophon's Anabasis, an ancient Greek tale, and also the cult classic film, which I guess I'm just going to have to watch yet again in preparation for the podcast. 

JAY [00:32:52] I know. That will be painful, won't it? I'm going to have to watch it again, too, damn it. All right. We're big fans of the movie. One of the fun things about Hard Core Logo was seeing how the book and the movie either complemented each other or got it wrong. And that's why I'm really interested to see -- I had no idea the movie The Warriors, which we're both fans of, was actually based on a book by the same name. So I'm pretty excited about this podcast coming up, because it's going to give us a chance to see how far did the movie stick with the knitting? How far did it go off track? Was it better than the book? 

PHIL [00:33:28] The film is so stylized. I'm curious about how much of that, I mean, I imagine that stuff doesn't come through in the book. I haven't read it yet, so I don't know. But I would figure it's more narrative-driven, but I'm really curious about that. So join us for that next time. 

JAY [00:33:42] We'll see you next time. 

Song [00:33:43] "Who the hell you think you are?"